Episode 62
EVERYTHING Wrong with the GUN Industry (Ft. The Gun Collective)
Jon Patton, founder of The Gun Collective (TGC), joins hosts John and Kaylee to talk about nine years of covering the firearms industry and what he thinks the industry keeps getting wrong. Patton has made YouTube videos since 2011 and built TGC into a go-to source for gun news, new product launches, and his blunt, often sarcastic takes. He explains why he says exactly what he thinks, even when it angers a company, and why his audience rewards that honesty. He recounts companies threatening to sue him and one telling him to take a video down because he called a product unsafe, and his answer was no.
The conversation moves from creator philosophy to activism. Patton describes starting GunCon, a panel idea he borrowed from seeing Rooster Teeth's RTX, then grew into a weekend event that lets everyday viewers meet the creators they watch. He and Kaylee dig into his speech at GOALS and the core point that not every gun owner is an enthusiast. The job, as they frame it, is reaching the casual owner, the first-time buyer, and the hunter, and reminding them the Second Amendment matters at the local and state level, not just in a presidential race. Kaylee argues it is far easier to stop a bad bill before it passes than to fight it later, and that grassroots advocacy has driven the recent wave of constitutional carry states.
The second half turns to the industry itself. Patton says brands are too big and too slow to listen, releasing reintroductions and 'me too' products instead of anything truly innovative, while charging prices the economy will not support. He and the hosts trade frustrations over the patchwork of state gun laws and the stress of traveling across the country with firearms. Kaylee presses on an underserved market: shooters with limited mobility or smaller frames who get handed a J-frame revolver or a snappy compact instead of a gun they can actually control. Patton agrees it is being ignored, mostly over money, and the episode closes on shared stories from their gun-store days.
Questions this episode answers
Who is Jon Patton and how did The Gun Collective get started?
Jon Patton is the founder of The Gun Collective, a firearms news and product channel he has run for nine years. He has made YouTube videos since 2011 and built it into a go-to source for gun news and new product launches, delivered with a blunt, sarcastic style.
Why does Patton give honest, critical takes on products even when it angers companies?
Patton says whether he upsets a company matters zero to him, and his audience rewards that honesty because they get the perspective of a normal gun owner. He recounts brands threatening to sue and one demanding he pull a video after he called a product unsafe, and he refused.
What is GunCon and what gave Patton the idea to build it?
GunCon is a weekend event that lets everyday viewers meet the firearms creators they watch. Patton borrowed the panel idea from seeing Rooster Teeth's RTX, then grew it into a full gathering connecting creators and their audiences face to face.
Why does Patton say not every gun owner is an enthusiast, and why does that matter for advocacy?
Patton argues many gun owners are casual owners, first-time buyers, and hunters rather than enthusiasts, and the job is reaching them. The point matters because those owners need reminding that the Second Amendment is decided at the local and state level, not only in a presidential race.
Is it better to stop a bad gun bill early or fight it in the courts later?
Co-host Kaylee argues it is far easier to stop a bad bill before it passes than to fight it after the fact. She credits grassroots advocacy at the state level with driving the recent wave of constitutional carry states.
Why does Patton think the firearms industry struggles to innovate?
Patton says big brands are too large and too slow to listen, putting out reintroductions and me-too products instead of anything truly innovative. He adds that companies chase trends rather than set them, while charging prices the economy will not support.
Why are shooters with limited mobility or smaller frames an underserved market?
Kaylee presses that shooters with limited mobility or smaller frames often get handed a J-frame revolver or a snappy compact instead of a gun they can actually control. Patton agrees the market is ignored, mostly over money.
Chapters
- 00:00 — Welcome and introducing Jon Patton
- 00:46 — The origins of The Gun Collective
- 02:58 — Hot takes, accuracy, and being proven wrong
- 07:37 — Rapid Fire questions
- 11:53 — How GunCon started
- 15:20 — Connecting creators and viewers face to face
- 17:05 — The GOALS speech and reaching casual gun owners
- 25:27 — Building an on-ramp for new gun owners
- 27:08 — Speaking the truth and angering companies
- 32:25 — Soapbox: overlanding and the pro-gun crossover
- 36:42 — Traveling across states with a firearm
- 39:38 — Constitutional carry and grassroots advocacy
- 47:00 — NICS numbers and the lack of innovation
- 55:45 — Underserved shooters and the shrink-it-pink-it problem
- 1:04:55 — Gun-store stories and sign-off
About the guest
Jon Patton is the founder of The Gun Collective (TGC), which has been running for nine years. He has made videos on YouTube since 2011 and focuses primarily on gun industry news, new products, and Second Amendment topics, delivered with a sarcastic, opinionated style. He scripts most of his content, including the jokes. Patton started in a gun store in 2012 and says he works in the firearms industry. He created GunCon, a panel-turned-weekend event for gun creators and their audiences, after seeing Rooster Teeth's RTX. He also runs a separate channel about his van build and is moving into overlanding. He carries an HK VP9 and holds a Pennsylvania license to carry a firearm and a Utah permit.
Key quotes
"you can get the news and you will also get what I believe is the perspective of a normal gun guy." — Jon Patton
"whether I piss a company off or not matters zero to me" — Jon Patton
"I think the thing that a lot of us get wrong is this idea that all gun owners are enthusiasts." — Jon Patton
"it is far easier to stop a bad bill before it gets signed, before it gets passed than it is to wait until the end and then try to fight it." — Kaylee
"I think the industry is very good at not listening." — Jon Patton
"We haven't seen a big gun company do anything truly, truly innovative in a long time." — Jon Patton
Transcript
Welcome to Gun Owners of America.
Kaylee:State of the second podcast.
Kaylee:I'm Kaylee.
John:I'm John.
John:And today in TGC news, we have Jon Patton.
Jon Patton:Hi, I'm here.
John:What's up, brother?
John:How you doing today?
Jon Patton:You know, I am feeling great.
Jon Patton:I'm very excited to be here.
Jon Patton:I don't get to see you guys ever.
Jon Patton:So this is like, this is how we all hang out these days.
Jon Patton:We have each other on podcasts and that's how we talk.
John:That.
John:You know what?
John:That is true.
Jon Patton:It's very true.
John:Very true.
John:We all hang out through podcasts.
Jon Patton:Yeah.
Jon Patton:Yeah.
John:Well, let's go ahead and start off for the people who may not know who you are, which it's very few and far in between who you are, the origins of tgc.
John:Just go ahead, go for it.
Jon Patton:Oh, boy.
Jon Patton: as a dark and stormy night in: Jon Patton:The Gun Collective is coming up on.
Jon Patton:We've been around for nine years.
Jon Patton:I make videos about guns and I shout on the Internet quite often if you don't know what I do.
Jon Patton:The primary function is gun news, whether that's some second amendment related stuff, but primarily gun industry news, new products, et cetera.
Jon Patton:I am usually sarcastic, usually saying something mean, and I try to make people laugh quite often.
Jon Patton:And then I do a bunch of other stuff.
Jon Patton:You know, we do reviews and other things.
Jon Patton:So I think that's like the shortest version of it.
Jon Patton:I don't want to waste your entire show talking about all the nonsense I've been doing for the last nine years.
John:Yes.
John:But it's been.
John:Your humor comes across very great.
Jon Patton:Thank you, John.
John:I watch almost every episode of TGC only because not only are you a friend, but also because it is great informative news on what is new in the industry.
John:For those who are not in the.
Jon Patton:Know, the checks in the mail.
Jon Patton:Thanks for that promo.
John:Oh, you're welcome.
John:But it's, it's great because for.
John:For a very long time, you have been the one, the only gun news spot for a lot of people where come in and see the new product launches and see what's cool and you tell it like it is.
John:You tell them like, this is dumb.
John:Like, why is there a cybertruck gun?
John:Who knows why?
John:But it's there.
Jon Patton:Yeah, here it is.
Jon Patton:This, this thing that nobody asked for exists and it costs a fortune.
Jon Patton:Usually that's.
Jon Patton:I mean, the, the prices on guns are freaking absurd these days.
Jon Patton:But yeah, I think, I think that's one of the Things people have come to appreciate about me and TGC news is that you can get the news and you will also get what I believe is the perspective of a normal gun guy.
Jon Patton:At least most of the time.
Kaylee:Yeah, you're known for some pretty hot takes on things.
Kaylee:You know, I think that gives you a lot of credibility for your viewers.
Kaylee:Has there ever been a time where you have given a hot take and then you've been proven wrong by.
Kaylee:When you've actually gotten to like shoot the gun or, or gone to an event and like seen, seen something in action or is your gut like 99.95% accurate?
Jon Patton:I would say I'm 98% accurate.
Jon Patton:98, because there's.
Jon Patton:I got it wrong with.
Jon Patton:I think it was the equalizer.
Jon Patton:I had put out a review on that and I crapped all over the gun and I really didn't like it because I thought it was supposed to replace the shield and I had the perspective.
Jon Patton:I came at it from the wrong angle.
Jon Patton:And then we actually released a second video follow up video saying, look, I was wrong, here's why, here's why it's cool.
Jon Patton:And yeah, I mean that has happened, but more often than not, I'm pretty, pretty dialed in.
Jon Patton:Thankfully.
Jon Patton:I mean, not everybody agrees with me.
Jon Patton:I'm not saying everybody agrees with me, but usually I try to be as well reasoned in my approach as possible.
Jon Patton:Even like I had one of the, I won't name the company, but I had one of the most high end, most expensive gun companies out there reach out and say thank you for covering their guns.
Jon Patton:Even though I regularly talk about how they're overpriced.
Jon Patton:That should tell you something.
Kaylee:Yeah, and I think that's why you have such a, a loyal follower base and people who, who love to watch either your full episodes or your 60 second.
Kaylee:You know that those nice little things that really, I think help people who don't have a lot of time be able to digest new gun content and know what's going on in the second amendment community.
Jon Patton:Well, I try, you know, that's, that's the goal is to make sure that I'm doing my job.
Jon Patton:The thing I set out to do is to know, you know, to inform people.
Jon Patton:And I think, I think we're doing an okay job of that and we could always do better.
Jon Patton:But you know, I'm trying to make sure that we stay consistent and bring people the news they actually care about.
John:Yeah.
John:And you've been doing this and I'm not going to date you.
John:You've Been doing it for a long time.
John:Nine years, like you said.
Jon Patton:I've been doing it.
Jon Patton:I've been doing YouTube for like 13.
Jon Patton: started in: John:So doing this for this long.
John:What has been your highlight moments of.
John:I was at a show where I was at an event and somebody said something to me or somebody stopped me.
John:It was like, thank you.
Jon Patton:I don't know that there's one particular event or like thing that happened that made me go like, wow, this is, this is the thing that I was seeking or the validation I was after.
Jon Patton:It's more been like this collective, you know, tongue in cheek thing.
Jon Patton:I've had the fortunate circumstance of having a bunch of people over time see me and, or hear my voice.
Jon Patton:More often than not.
Jon Patton:If I get recognized, it's my voice.
Jon Patton:And they come over and they say thank you, and they watch all the time.
Jon Patton:Sometimes the wives chime in because it's, you know, largely guys in the audience and, oh, I know your voice.
Jon Patton:I know that guy.
Jon Patton:I hear you shouting on my husband's phone all the time.
Jon Patton:I think the first time it ever happened, which was a really wild experience, is I was at Cabela's, like an hour from where I live, and a guy comes across the aisle and he's like, hey, are you, are you that news guy on YouTube for guns?
Jon Patton:And I said, sure, yeah, yeah, I guess that's me.
Jon Patton:And that was, I want to say, 20.
Jon Patton:That was like the first year, which let me know, like, hey, we're doing something right.
Jon Patton:We're doing something right.
Jon Patton:And that has continued.
Jon Patton:Thankfully, people seem to care, you know.
Jon Patton:Thankfully, when we go to events, we get the opportunity to meet all the people that listen and watch and all that sort of stuff.
Jon Patton:It's great.
John:It's great.
John:So we're going to start off with our segment called Rapid Fire.
John:I'm going to ask you five questions.
John:You try to give me an answer off the top of your head.
Jon Patton:I am so excited.
Jon Patton:I am very worried that I might curse at you, but I'm going to try not to.
John:Okay, so here we go.
John:Pineapple on pizza, yes or no?
Jon Patton:Yeah, absolutely.
John:Go to home.
Jon Patton:Defense gun.50 cal.
Jon Patton:Desert Eagle.
John:Go to EDC.
Jon Patton:I am currently carrying an HKVP9.
John:Are aliens real?
Jon Patton:Yes, absolutely.
Jon Patton:They admitted this.
John:If you could go back in time and change history, would you?
Jon Patton:No.
John:There we go.
John:You're the fastest to do this too.
Jon Patton:These are easy questions.
Jon Patton:Come on, man.
Jon Patton:Do people, like, normally elaborate or do they think Too long on this.
John:We've gotten a few that have just elaborated way too long into it.
Jon Patton:Oh, yeah.
Jon Patton:These are simple questions.
Jon Patton:I think largely the population of the world cannot handle a yes or no question more often than not.
John:Agreed.
John:Do you want harder questions?
Jon Patton:Let's go.
Jon Patton:Let's go.
Jon Patton:Come on.
Jon Patton:What's the meaning of life?
Jon Patton:What's the longest word in the English language?
Jon Patton:Both in Latin and.
Jon Patton:And regular English language?
John:Meaning of life is 27.
Jon Patton:I thought it was 42.
John:That too.
Jon Patton:Okay.
Jon Patton:Do you know the longest word?
John:Isn't it supercalifragilisticexpialidocious?
Jon Patton:That's like a made up Disney word though.
Jon Patton:Does that count?
John:It's a word.
Kaylee:I would say yes.
Kaylee:I think they've probably trademarked it.
Kaylee:We probably owe them money.
John:House of mouse is coming after us.
Jon Patton:They're coming.
Jon Patton:It's anti disestablishmentarianism.
Jon Patton:And the longest, if you include like medical things, it's pneumonia.
Jon Patton:Ultra microscopic skill called volcaniconiosis, which is black lung disease.
Kaylee:I feel like we need.
Kaylee:The more you know, the more you know.
Jon Patton:This is what happens when you have this ridiculous kind of brain and you just hold on to stuff that doesn't matter.
John:I thought I was bad.
John:She makes.
John:I was.
John:Earlier today, we were sitting here and we had chicken noodle soup for lunch.
John:And I was singing the chicken noodle soup song.
Jon Patton:And a soda on the side.
John:Yes.
John:And she's like, where did.
John:Where in the back of your brain did that come from?
Jon Patton:It was.
Jon Patton:So you say chicken noodle soup.
Jon Patton:The following words should be.
Jon Patton:And a soda on the side.
John:Yes.
Kaylee:It was so not connected to the conversation that we were having.
Jon Patton:It doesn't matter.
Jon Patton:It's the right thing to say.
Kaylee:It just.
Kaylee:It.
Kaylee:It caught me off guard and I was like, what?
John:Thank you.
John:I'm validated.
Jon Patton:Chicken noodle soup.
Jon Patton:Chicken manu soup with a soda on the side.
Jon Patton:Come on now.
John:And there's a dance and everything.
Jon Patton:Yeah.
Jon Patton:There's a whole thing.
Kaylee:I'm aware.
Jon Patton:I need your hood pass.
Jon Patton:Give me your hood pass.
Kaylee:You don't want.
Jon Patton:You don't.
Jon Patton:You don't deserve it anymore.
Kaylee:I understand.
Kaylee:I understand that it exists.
Kaylee:It was just.
Kaylee:It was like a total break in the conversation.
Kaylee:And it was a total squirrel moment.
Kaylee:And I just.
Kaylee:I had to ask if he was okay because it just.
Kaylee:It just broke my brain a little bit.
Kaylee:The jump.
Kaylee:It was.
Kaylee:We were having a serious conversation and then it.
Kaylee:Nope.
Jon Patton:The question, John, is what kind of soda?
John:Dr.
John:Pepper.
Jon Patton:What?
Jon Patton:What?
Jon Patton:Who are you?
Jon Patton:We're not friends.
Jon Patton:Anymore Dr.
Jon Patton:Pepper.
Jon Patton:That's the one you pick.
John:It's always Dr.
John:Pepper.
Jon Patton:It's ginger ale, you terrorist.
Kaylee:I will die on the Hill.
Kaylee:That Dr.
Kaylee:Pepper is the superior soda.
John:I mean, he's not wrong.
John:If I'm sick, it is Sprite or Dr.
John:Pepper or not Dr.
John:Pepper.
Kaylee:The answer is still Dr.
Kaylee:Pepper.
Jon Patton:Yeah, yeah.
Jon Patton:He can't let it go.
Jon Patton:His brain is just locked on.
Jon Patton:Dr.
Jon Patton:Pepper.
John:Sponsor us, please.
Jon Patton:Right?
Jon Patton:Can you imagine?
Kaylee:So I want to.
Kaylee:I want to kind of jump into this conversation that I think is so important.
Kaylee:And you have done a really fantastic job about opening up a forum for people to kind of dive in, ask questions.
Kaylee:It started out as, you know, the.
Kaylee:An ace.
Kaylee:I don't even know how to say it.
John:It was just a panel.
Kaylee:It was a panel at.
Kaylee:At another event.
Kaylee:And then now it has turned into a whole weekend event called Guncon.
Kaylee:And so kind of walk us through what was the deciding factor to even rent out a place and have a panel discussion and, and include real life audience members in those questions.
Jon Patton:It came from a place of like, why is nobody else doing this?
Jon Patton:You know, I had seen.
Jon Patton:I had seen what Rooster teeth used to do.
Jon Patton:And I think they called it rtx.
Jon Patton:I think that's what they called it.
Jon Patton:It was their own like video gaming kind of expo.
Jon Patton:And I had seen them doing a panel.
Jon Patton:I'm like, wait, we could totally do this.
Jon Patton:Why is nobody doing this in the gun?
Jon Patton:And I was fortunate enough to have the contact information for some of the biggest at the time.
Jon Patton:And I believe the first one was in Louisville, maybe, I think whatever.
Jon Patton:The second one was Atlanta.
Jon Patton:I remember that because the second one we did in the actual NRA annual meeting convention, we did it in their facility with them.
Jon Patton:And that did not go well.
Jon Patton:So the following year we separated official, like, you know, I started doing it again in other facilities, but it came from a spot of the community needs this.
Jon Patton:I wanted to see it.
Jon Patton:And I think the creators really enjoyed it and that's why they keep coming back year after year.
John:I mean, I've enjoyed every chance I've gotten to either watch the panels or watch them or be there live.
John:I mean, it's fantastic what you're doing and it gives the general audience.
John:And again, I'm blessed.
John:I've known you for so long now.
Jon Patton:Forever.
John:It's been forever.
John:The first time I met John and he doesn't remember.
John:He claims he doesn't remember this story.
John:I remember the story vividly.
John:John licked me on the face.
Jon Patton:The first time we met it never happened.
Jon Patton:And you're a dirty liar.
John:It did happen.
Jon Patton:It didn't.
Kaylee:I don't know what it says about you that you're bragging that a grown man licked your face.
Kaylee:If that's what you want on the.
Jon Patton:Internet, that's not something I would do.
Jon Patton:I'm never going to lick another dude's face.
John:It was the weirdest thing.
John:That's why I remember it so vividly.
Jon Patton:John, I know you really want that to have happened.
John:I do.
Jon Patton:You want that bragging, right?
Jon Patton:It didn't.
Jon Patton:You're a dirty liar.
Jon Patton:And I will stand tall on that.
John:But I have.
John:I have pictures of young.
John:I shared them with you the, the last time we saw each other.
John:I found pictures of young John and me, or younger John with the shorter beard.
Jon Patton:Yes.
John:Way back in the day was me, Sean with no beard, and you with the shorter beard.
John:It was way, way back in the day.
John:But wow.
John:The thing with guncon, and I went on that weird tangent for a second, but the thing with guncon, what I found really amazing, and again, like I said, I've been blessed because we've been friends for so long, is that Guncon gave the average YouTube viewer, the guys who aren't in this industry who don't have that friendship with a lot of the creators, a chance to actually talk to them.
John:And I applaud you for that because you were the first to bring that to the forefront for people to be able to talk and ask the questions maybe they didn't have the confidence to ask in the comment section.
Jon Patton:Yeah, I mean, that was, that was a big part of it.
Jon Patton:Making sure that the connection, like remove the keyboard.
Jon Patton:Right.
Jon Patton:Change the keyboard to a handshake.
Jon Patton:Change the keyboard to an opportunity to have a face to face conversation with somebody you watch regularly, like Mr.
Jon Patton:Guns and Gear or Military Arms channel or, you know, we like shooting.
Jon Patton:Any of these guys, you know, they've.
Jon Patton:Mr.
Jon Patton:Guns and Gear.
Jon Patton:I sat down in Knoxville after Goals was sharing a house with Sean Herron and Mr.
Jon Patton:Guns and Gear.
Jon Patton:And the three of us went, oh, crap, we've been doing this the longest together.
Jon Patton:Like those two guys were at the very first TGC panel in that hotel years ago and have done every single one since.
Jon Patton:And we sort of reflected on it and how amazing that is that we've all been able to support each other in that way and grow the community in that way.
John:Now there's.
John:And again, that's amazing.
John:I wanted to bring this up real quick.
John:No, boy, at Goal, you brought up Goals.
John:So I'M bringing up goals.
John:I asked you and Kaylee and I asked you as a goa, as an organization to do a five minute speech which you have.
John:You don't normally, don't do a speech by yourself.
John:You're normally on the panel.
John:What was that like for you to be able to give your voice, which again, amazing speech by the way.
John:If you haven't listened to the speech, you can either go to our rumble and scroll through it and find a speech or you can go to John's YouTube.
John:He's got it up on TGC.
John:I believe that speech is up on your, on your YouTube channel, correct?
Jon Patton:Yeah, I don't remember.
Jon Patton:I think I said it's titled like my speech to thousands of gun owners or something like that.
John:But what was that like for you to give, give a speech to actually address in, not in a video, but address a whole crowd of people like that?
Jon Patton:It was super weird.
Jon Patton:Super weird.
Jon Patton:I didn't prepare at all by the way, zero prep, because I knew like I am if I didn't have a prompter.
Jon Patton:Like I normally script all of the news and all of these things, even the jokes are scripted, if you can believe that.
Jon Patton:Sometimes, you know, most of the time they're scripted.
Jon Patton:So it was definitely, it's, it's a change of pace for me, but it was an opportunity to actually solo on stage.
Jon Patton:Normally I, when I'm on stage, I'm with some friends, I'm with other creators and it was a good opportunity to have that sort of back and forth and speak on something that I felt very strongly about and I still feel very strongly about, which is, you know, hopefully everybody, you know, we're recording this before the election, but hopefully everybody got out there and voted in favor of the second Amendment, which is kind of the core of that speech.
Kaylee:But you, you give this speech at goals.
Kaylee:It's very impactful for I think a lot of people because, you know, we, we want to believe that gun owners are always proactive, that we're never reactionary and that if, if we are reactionary, we're never apathetic.
Kaylee:And the, the reality is not every gun owner is as, as proactive as, as we would want and not every gun owners is even as reactive as we would want.
Kaylee:But I think the harder part is getting those people that would prefer to have their head buried in the sand and would prefer to be apathetic, to actually get them to engage in the culture war, to engage in the political fight for the preservation and restoration of our rights.
Kaylee:And it doesn't matter if you're listening to this, after the election, we're filming this.
Kaylee:But right before the election or not.
Kaylee:But there will always be challenges regardless of who is in office.
Kaylee:There will always be challenges regardless of who is on your, your school board or your county commission.
Kaylee:But it's our job as advocates to be as proactive as humanly possible.
Kaylee:And I always kind of give this example because so many people believe and want to believe that the courts will just fix everything.
Kaylee:But it is far easier to stop a bad bill before it gets signed, before it gets passed than it is to wait until the end and then try to fight it.
Kaylee:And that goes the same for an election season and that goes for the same for even getting bills sponsored.
Kaylee:I can't tell you how many times, you know, we at GOA will, will receive an email.
Kaylee:I can't believe that you guys sent out an alert out on, you know, the Shush act that wants to remove suppressors from the nfa.
Kaylee:You know, this isn't going to get signed by Biden, Sure.
Kaylee:But we have to get people on the record now.
Kaylee:We have to get things introduced now.
Kaylee:We have to get the sponsors prepared and on record because eventually, hopefully there will be somebody who will sign it.
Kaylee:But if you're having to start from zero versus starting from a place of preparedness, it's a different fight.
Kaylee:And especially when you're dealing with a House of Representatives that has an election every two years, you have to hold the legislators accountable.
Kaylee:And getting them on record early and often is how we eventually will find any level of success there.
Kaylee:You can't simply rely on the courts to fix everything.
Kaylee:If that was the case, then, you know, the NFA and these things wouldn't have been tyrannical for almost a hundred years now.
Kaylee:And so, sorry, that was a little bit soapboxy, which is our next segment.
Kaylee:But, but I think part of your speech was, is so impactful for that reason is you are talking to gun owners broadly and not just those who are, you know, the super hardcore activists, but anyone that fits in any of those groups.
Kaylee:And it was, it was a true call to action for everyone to rise to the occasion.
Jon Patton:I think the thing that a lot of us get wrong is this idea that all gun owners are enthusiasts.
Jon Patton:That's never been the case.
Jon Patton:So we have to look beyond our enthusiast echo chamber and try to communicate and try to activate and connect with the people that are just gun owners.
Jon Patton:You know, like your group is called Gun Owners of America, not Gun Enthusiasts of America.
Jon Patton:Right.
Jon Patton:These are very different types of people.
Jon Patton:And it's important that we remind the casuals out there that the second amendment does matter and you should be voting for people that support it.
Jon Patton:And that's not just in the presidential election.
Jon Patton:That's at the state level, at the local level, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
Jon Patton:I think it's very important for us to remember that the second amendment is the backer for every other amendment and people just forget and we just need to push and remind people.
Jon Patton:That's our job as enthusiasts.
John:I think you just said that very well, that a lot of people address and a lot of people on the Internet who, who consume a ton of firearms content are the enthusiasts.
John:And we, we forget about the first time gun owners or the gun owners who bought their guns during COVID or the people who are just getting into this or the hunters.
John:It's.
John:It's not.
John:The average gun owner is not you or I because we are so ingrained into this that this is now just more than just owning guns.
John:It's a hobby.
John:This is a way of life.
John:This is a just an everyday thing that we talk about.
John:And I.
John:That's a very good point.
John:Really well said on.
John:We have to go past the, our echo chamber and go into the community as a whole.
Jon Patton:Yeah, I mean we.
Jon Patton:My job is to speak to the echo chamber.
Jon Patton:You know, the.
Jon Patton:9 times out of 10 the regular passerby gun guy is probably not going to latch on to the things that I'm doing in my videos because it's meant for enthusiasts.
Jon Patton:So when we have the opportunity to reach those other people and have those conversations and spread that message in a larger way, we should.
Kaylee:What.
Kaylee:From a content creation standpoint, which is obviously your lane, how do you build an on ramp to gain more of an audience?
Kaylee:Because how do you take somebody from I just bought my first gun to that enthusiast level?
Kaylee:And how are ways that you've been able to grow your audience and your brand?
Jon Patton:I think humor has something to do with that.
Jon Patton:And I also think trying to remain true to the struggles that, you know, some of the less enthusiastic people, I don't really know, the people that are newer to it.
Jon Patton:I think I tried to take the point or try to take the time to, to explain things that may be normal to you and I, you know, the, the cost, the production, how things are done, et cetera.
Jon Patton:I try to take some time to do that and give context to more complicated situations and add some humor in there which sort of breaks the walls down.
Jon Patton:I try to do that, so that if somebody is a.
Jon Patton:As I put it, casual, perhaps they'll, they'll get involved or want to know more or whatever.
Jon Patton:I think really, that's how I'm trying to keep things entertaining enough while still giving the legit news to try and reach a larger audience.
Jon Patton:Try being the key word in today's environment.
John:I wanted to touch on this real quick.
John:A lot of content creators are hesitant to do what you do, and by that I mean you.
John:You speak the truth.
John:Because they're worried of angering the company.
John:Why have you chosen, you know, that.
John:That path?
John:And, and have you angered a company enough to say, no, we don't want to work with?
John:And I know the answer to this.
John:But, but, you know, why have you chosen that path?
John:Because a lot of content creators, oh, I don't want to sully that, or I don't want to go that far.
John:Why have you chosen to do what you do?
John:And it, it works.
John:It's good.
John:Fantastic.
Jon Patton:You know, I don't know when this, when this personality trait developed.
Jon Patton:I have a very thin filter, perhaps, is the way to put it.
Jon Patton:I do know how to censor myself in certain ways and how to pull it back and adjust.
Jon Patton:You know, like, normally I would be cursing my face off laughing about this topic.
Jon Patton:But the key is that the version of what I'm putting out on the Internet is as close to me like the real version of me.
Jon Patton:It's as close as I can possibly get it while still maintaining some level of entertainment because the pauses and all that thing, those typically get edited out.
Jon Patton:But it's trying to be me.
Jon Patton:This is how I actually feel.
Jon Patton:And these are my actual opinions.
Jon Patton:Most of the time, I'm just letting it rip because I have always been told through, you know, the education of content creation, I've always seen things that say, you need to be your authentic self.
Jon Patton:And I have sort of wavered here and there and said things that I maybe didn't 100% think.
Jon Patton:And over the last, I would say, two to three years, I've really dialed into saying exactly what I really think, and I think the audience really appreciates the honesty.
Jon Patton:And whether I piss a company off or not matters zero to me, because if, if I say, you know, if I give an opinion on a given product and they take that personally, there's not much I can do about that because that's an emotional reaction.
Jon Patton:Nine times out of 10, I've had people threaten to sue me.
Jon Patton:I've had people, you know, swear they're gonna get Me in trouble with YouTube or have my video taken down or whatever, all kinds of nonsense.
Jon Patton:You know that, that headrest safe guy, he swore that I had to take my video down because I didn't think his product was safe.
Jon Patton:And I will.
Jon Patton:I still don't think it's safe to hold guns.
Jon Patton:Other stuff, sure.
Jon Patton:But using that for a gun safe is one of the most dangerous things that you can be doing.
Jon Patton:I see this thing all over the Internet, but that's one of the more recent ones where a company legitimately got mad at me and said, you have to take this video down because it didn't work in favor of his marketing.
Jon Patton:And I said, you know what, no, I'm not going to do that for you because I don't owe you that.
Jon Patton:And I think the audience truly appreciates that sort of stance.
Jon Patton:And a lot of times I don't like to, you know, have this like self aggrandizing thing, but I try to stand in the way of that BS for the audience, on behalf of the audience.
Jon Patton:Does that make sense?
John:I mean, I've been on the other side of this with you Senate, when we worked at Fax and.
John:But we appreciate your honesty.
John:I mean, Kurt and I appreciated it.
John:It was true, it was thin.
John:We knew what we had to fix.
John:And that is, I think, a nuance that a lot of content creators are scared about being their true self for pissing off a company.
John:But without your input, we don't know what to fix.
John:You know what I mean?
Jon Patton:I agree, I agree.
Jon Patton:It doesn't.
Jon Patton:Saying yes to everything and being a yes man, I guess, is not helping anybody.
Jon Patton:You're not helping the audience, you're not helping the company, you're not helping anybody in this equation.
Jon Patton:So being comfortable with stating things that are maybe not as good or maybe not good at all, those things are fine and we should be accepting of that.
Jon Patton:And most companies, most companies out there are grateful for the perspective.
Jon Patton:They love it because they want to know what can be better so that they can make it better and sell more.
Jon Patton:But I think a lot of content creators just forget about that.
Jon Patton:They want more free stuff.
Jon Patton:So they keep saying positive things.
Jon Patton:And I'm, you know, I've got a wall of cool stuff that I have acquired.
Jon Patton:Some of it sucks.
Jon Patton:Some of these guns back here are not great, but they remind me to stay true to myself.
Kaylee:Absolutely.
Kaylee:Well, it is just past the halfway point on this podcast, so it is time for our from the Soapbox segment.
Kaylee:Outside of what you do on the gun side of things, you are also a overlander and you have a whole channel dedicated to your van build which just keeps getting cooler and cooler and more and more out of my budget.
Kaylee:But me too.
Kaylee:But walk us through what it has been like kind of expanding into a sector of the YouTube arena that is a little less on the censored side to say the least.
Kaylee:And kind of compare and contrast and give us your hot takes on how that niche is kind of also surprisingly super pro gun.
Jon Patton:I mean, the fact that it is pro gun shocked me.
Jon Patton:I assumed that a good portion of those people would not be favorable to my career path.
Jon Patton:So when I was walking around one of the first events that I went to, I'm like tiptoeing around like, hey, you know, I make content for a living.
Jon Patton:And now I'm like, yeah, I make gun content for a living.
Jon Patton:I work in the firearms industry.
Jon Patton:And I just say that now.
Jon Patton:And it's, it's surprising how many people are favorable for.
Jon Patton:Maybe not everybody carries, but there's a lot, a lot of those folks that carry and are freedom minded, I guess is one way to put it.
Jon Patton:I think the core of self reliance and what is almost prepping in certain ways is very strong in the off road and overlanding community.
Jon Patton:I don't think I would call myself an overlander yet because my van has only been off road at Sean's range at 100 miles an hour.
Jon Patton:Not really.
Jon Patton:I haven't gone off road quite often.
Jon Patton:But that is the plan and that's what I would like to do and I would like to bring those people into our community and show them that it's not one sided.
Jon Patton:Like one of the things that I am attempting to do with guncon is bring more of those folks on board and just have them at the event, you know, because there is a blend and there is a crossover and the same thing goes with the vans and RVs and all those sorts of things.
Jon Patton:There's a lot of Americans out there that like firearms or are interested in firearms and if I can bridge the gap, if I can be the guy, sure, yeah, I'm in.
Kaylee:That's awesome.
Kaylee:I know that there are some certain challenges.
Kaylee:I mean, we talk a lot at GOA about the need for concealed carry reciprocity and, and eventually, you know, we would, we want to see a full restoration of the Second Amendment, which means constitutional carry in all 50 states.
Kaylee:And you know, we have goals of not being needed anymore because the second amendment is just the second amendment.
Kaylee:We probably won't see that in my lifetime.
Kaylee:But but that's, that's our core philosophy.
Kaylee:Have you had any conversations especially.
Kaylee:I know, you know, one of the kind of big overlanding hotspots is like Lake Tahoe and the Rubicon trails.
Kaylee:That is in probably one of the most restricted areas as far as gun laws go.
Kaylee:When you're talking to these overlanding, this overlanding community and they find out about the guns, what are, what are the questions that they're asking?
Kaylee:What are the things that they find to be the biggest nuisances?
Jon Patton:You know, it's funny, most of the time when it comes up, there are no questions.
Jon Patton:It usually just goes, oh cool, here, come look at my thing that I have in my vehicle.
Jon Patton:Like that's, it's usually very like, yes.
Jon Patton:And the, I think the biggest challenges with traveling, I travel quite a bit, you guys travel quite a bit, you know, is knowing what is legal and where.
Jon Patton:I think that's one of the most difficult things that we all face.
Jon Patton:A lot of people have questions about traveling with firearms.
Jon Patton:You know, how are we supposed to store it?
Jon Patton:There's a lot of assumptions about what is or is not legal.
Jon Patton:I just went through the state of New Jersey yesterday and I was completely disarmed because New Jersey is.
Jon Patton:I can't think of a non curse word thing to say about it.
Jon Patton:It's bad.
Jon Patton:There we go.
Jon Patton:It's bad.
Jon Patton:We'll stick with that.
Jon Patton:I think, you know, understanding the nuance of the state to state laws is very difficult.
Jon Patton:I have a big sticking point with national reciprocity because the idea of national reciprocity means that the federal government has control as opposed to the states.
Jon Patton:And I have a big problem with the feds taking entire control.
Jon Patton:And you know, I agree with the constitutional carry everywhere.
Jon Patton:I agree with that.
Jon Patton:I struggle with giving the feds control of our gun rights in that way.
Jon Patton:So I don't, I don't know.
Jon Patton:There's, there's a nuance to it.
Jon Patton:It's the states rights versus federal government rights issue.
Jon Patton:And for me, I just want all the states to pull their heads out of their rear ends and just sort of accept licenses or laws of other states.
Jon Patton:Like you can carry here as you carry in your own home state.
Jon Patton:That would be cool.
Jon Patton:I think that would be fair.
Jon Patton:However, we don't do that.
Jon Patton:That's why I have a Pennsylvania license to carry a firearm.
Jon Patton:It is not a concealed weapons permit, as a lot of people say.
Jon Patton:It's a license to carry a firearm.
Jon Patton:And I also have a Utah permit, which is a different thing, because there's a training requirement.
Jon Patton:Pennsylvania does not have that.
Jon Patton:So we have to navigate all of these things in terms of what's legal, where, how is it legal, how are we traveling, do we have safe passage laws on our side?
Jon Patton:How long are we in a state, where are we at, you know, am I going to get caught?
Jon Patton:Things like that.
Jon Patton:Because it's complicated.
Jon Patton:Traveling across the US with a firearm.
Kaylee:Is ultimately, you have the 27 words penned by our founders and it shall not be infringed.
Kaylee:Which is why it is so refreshing that in probably one of the weirdest timelines that we're in in history, we're still seeing positive restorations happening at the state level with constitutional carry.
Kaylee:It's one.
Jon Patton:If you asked me five years ago if we were going to see this amount of constitutional carry states, I would have said, hell no, it's not going to happen.
Jon Patton:No way in heck, no way are we getting that many states on board for that.
Jon Patton:But I have been shocked that one after another.
Kaylee:And I think it all comes down to grassroots advocacy.
Kaylee: I mean, if we go back to: Kaylee:All of those things are happening at the grassroots level.
Kaylee:And it's so exciting to see because the states are not supposed to be creating their own gun control that goes against our constitutional rights to begin with.
Kaylee:And just as the federal government is not supposed to be creating new laws that go against our second Amendment.
Kaylee:And just for clarification's sake, the bloated bureaucracy that has no elected officials is not supposed to be going against our constitutionally protected rights either.
Kaylee:If you leave anything, shout out to.
Jon Patton:The ATF something terrorists.
Kaylee:Just in case anyone was clear, you know, not clear on what I was saying.
Kaylee:It's, it's.
Kaylee:You're not supposed to infringe upon a constitutionally protected right because it is a constitutionally protected right.
John:Well, you, he, he brought up safe passage laws.
John:You don't understand how butt puckering it is when you have a U haul full of guns going through Illinois.
John:Not like I've ever done that once.
Jon Patton:Or twice, but I definitely did not have a cargo van full of ammunition going to guncon one year through Illinois.
Jon Patton:That didn't happen.
John:Like the amount of pucker where you're like, okay, I got a pee in Indiana and I got to hold it till I hit Missouri.
John:Yeah, just.
John:It's.
John:It's insane.
John:It just drives me nuts.
Jon Patton:It's.
Jon Patton:That's.
Jon Patton:That's accurate.
Jon Patton:By the way, where are we stopping for fuel?
Jon Patton:Let's stop here so that we don't have to stop in Illinois.
Jon Patton:But it's.
Jon Patton:It's real.
John:Yeah, I mean, it's.
John:It just drives me nuts on.
John:On the safe passage laws and making sure that you.
John:The laws from state to state, even, you know, we travel a ton.
John:But we went to Sean's event last year, Colorado Range Day, and even the information I was getting about that, like, what magazines I could bring with me, was very confused.
John:I get there and Sean's like, oh, yeah, you could have had whatever you wanted.
John:It's fine.
John:But then I'm getting information from other people who are like, no, you don't.
John:No, you gotta stick to their laws.
John:So just.
John:Just.
John:No, it's just insane.
Jon Patton:It's all over the place, dude.
Kaylee:So not to.
Kaylee:Not to derail from that so much.
Jon Patton:Not to derail, but you're going to derail.
Kaylee:That is one of the overwhelming features of how convoluted our laws have gotten to new gun owners, where if you're coming into this space and thankfully millions of people are becoming gun owners and they're willing to brave the craziness of these laws.
Kaylee:But it is just that it's having to learn and relearn and constantly look up, you know, do I have.
Kaylee:Do I have reciprocity?
Kaylee:Do I need to look at getting a Utah out of state permit?
Kaylee:Do I need to look at getting a New York out of state permit, which we just had to sue the state of New York in order to even get that as an option, you know, do you need a Connecticut?
Kaylee:And so it's a weird game where your wallet starts expanding because, you know, you're trying to collect states like Pokemon, where you're trying to catch them all.
Kaylee:And sorry, I can't believe I said that.
Kaylee:Like.
Jon Patton:What are you.
Jon Patton:Why are you sorry for that?
Jon Patton:That was a great analogy.
Kaylee:Because both of you, all that.
Kaylee:Your facial face reaction to me saying anything about Pokemon, I was just like, well, I'm gonna go crawl under this table now.
Kaylee:But I thought it was that it's that amount of work and that amount of effort that gun owners have to go through just to be able to have their constitutional rights is ridiculous.
John:Well, you.
John:You say that.
John:It's funny.
John:In Ohio, it was.
John:If it used to be like, you could get a Florida permit be fine.
John:Then Ohio changed the law.
John:You have to have, if you're an Ohio resident, you have to have an Ohio permit.
John:You can't have an out of state permit and carry in Ohio without.
John:If you're a resident.
John:It's so dumb how each state has their own laws just pertaining to that and then you gotta go, okay, well I've got this permit.
John:Okay, well now I gotta go get another permit just to make sure I get this state because I need, I gotta travel to this state.
John:I want to have something.
John:We went to Chicago.
John:I brought a stabby Sharpie because that's the only thing I could carry in Chicago.
John:I get to D.C.
John:you're like, no knives.
John:I'm like, what do you mean?
John:I always carry a knife.
John:You're like, no, put it away.
John:It's just, it's so insane on just being able to protect yourself in some of these places.
John:Mind you, they also have the highest crime rate and gun violence.
Kaylee:Yeah.
Kaylee:Even more to that point, like Tennessee, which is considered a very pro gun state by most.
Kaylee:You have a.
Kaylee:I don't like to call our permit our constitutional carry because we got a lot of work to do.
Kaylee:It's getting better.
Kaylee:Still got a lot of work to do.
Kaylee:But we have permitless carry, then we have our carry permit and then we have our enhanced carry permit and then you have a lifetime carry permit.
Kaylee:So you've got like four different options just, just out of the gate.
Kaylee:And so, you know, if we want to put our, our minds to.
Kaylee:Okay, well, how do we build an on ramp for our community members to be a part of the second Amendment community?
Kaylee:How do we bring the education to them in a digestible way?
Kaylee:There are so many aspects that can be overwhelming to them.
Kaylee:And so it's being that resource for people to ask questions.
Kaylee:And it is, you know, seeing the need and meeting it and then advocating the best that we can as often as we can to stop having a spaghetti bowl of random gun laws that make no sense and just have a, of a process that is, hey, this is the Constitution and we're going to follow it.
John:So you're saying Tennessee is like super Smash Brothers.
John:You have to choose your character a little bit.
Kaylee:Yeah, yeah.
John:All right, so I'm going to.
Jon Patton:It's true.
John:I'm going to derail this for a second.
John:Um, yes.
John:So John, every week you report on the Knicks numbers?
John:Almost every week for the.
John:Every month.
Jon Patton:I'm sorry, it's every month.
Jon Patton:Every month they don't come out.
John:You reported the Knicks numbers.
John:You more than.
John:Yeah, most content creators have a good feel for the Knicks numbers and what's coming out.
John:So what are we seeing in the last four years from historic highs to where we're leveling out to about what we're normally at and how the gun industry is responding to that?
Jon Patton:I mean, the gun industry is doing a piss poor job of it, as per usual in terms of like responding with new and interesting products.
Jon Patton:It's a lot of, hey, we came out with something somebody else released a few years ago.
Jon Patton:Yay.
Jon Patton: million across this year,: Jon Patton:I have that on top of head because we talked about it last week or the week prior.
Jon Patton:The trend is that we are way up from pre pandemic numbers.
Jon Patton:We're way up.
Jon Patton:However, the industry has absorbed a lot more people.
Jon Patton:We don't know what the new trends are going to be.
Jon Patton:And I think a lot of companies are just kind of throwing stuff at a wall, hoping it works.
Jon Patton:I haven't seen anything that is groundbreaking in a very long time.
Jon Patton:I've seen a lot of reintroductions of old concepts, but I haven't seen anything that is like, wow, that's really cool.
Jon Patton:Which is a shame.
Jon Patton:And I think that the challenge is when these new concepts come out, a company will charge $3,000 for a gun.
Jon Patton:And the economy just does not allow for such a thing.
Jon Patton:It doesn't.
Jon Patton:And half the time when they do that, when they have this like mildly interesting idea, it's just, it's not good enough.
Jon Patton:It doesn't work right or it's half baked.
Jon Patton:We haven't seen a big gun company do anything truly, truly innovative in a long time.
John:I'm glad you said that because we were, we were talking to Jeremy Deadman earlier today about this and Jeremy's very vocal about this topic in particular.
Jon Patton:Jeremy is one of my oldest friends in the industry.
Jon Patton: He, we met in like: John:So we're talking about like if something innovative comes out, you normally see it in the basement of Shot show and then it disappears because there's not enough capital to go.
John:And the best, and I wouldn't say this is innovative, but the best example I have of this is Hudson.
John:Hudson was in the basement of Shot Show.
John:They popped up, they became the rage for two years and then gone.
John:And the, the other thing that I see is when people do step outside of the box, I wouldn't call it innovative, but step outside of the box.
John:And a good example of that is the Taurus curve.
John:It was awfully executed, but it was stepping outside of the box.
John:They get ridiculed.
Jon Patton:Sure, agree.
John:So do you think the industry is too worried about being ridiculed to innovate or are they just not innovating?
Jon Patton:I think the industry is very good at not listening.
Jon Patton:That's what I think.
Jon Patton:I think in large part brands are caught up in their own nonsense and do not do a good job of truly listening to what people want.
Jon Patton:You know, they will think that like the engineers at a given company will come up with an idea and oftentimes it'll take years for that to cross the finish line.
Jon Patton:And by the time it crosses the finish line, it's an idea from five years ago and it's just not good enough for the current market.
Jon Patton:I think most companies are too bloated, too big, and they don't move quick enough on cool ideas or novel concepts and they just don't listen to what people want.
Jon Patton:And then that means the consumer is left going, this is boring.
Jon Patton:I want something else.
Jon Patton:You know, one of the more interesting products that has come out in really recent years is the Genesis shotgun.
Jon Patton:It's a shotgun, a 12 gauge shotgun upper that goes on an AR10 lower.
Jon Patton:And they've done a great job making a product that's actually innovative, actually interesting.
Jon Patton:But that's one of, you know, 10,000 new things that has come out.
Jon Patton:I don't know if that's an accurate number, but that's one thing, it can't sustain the industry.
John:So the same trend I'm seeing that you're probably seeing is it's a lot of me too.
John:Like let's lever guns, for example.
John:Me too, I now have a lever gun.
John:Or it's, let's regurgitate this thing and change what it looks like.
Jon Patton:Let's make a new version of the P365.
Jon Patton:Let's make a full size micro compact.
Jon Patton:Which makes zero sense.
Jon Patton:Makes zero sense.
Jon Patton:But that's the thing that's happening.
John:Glad you brought up.
Jon Patton:That's what's coming out.
John:I don't know.
John:We had an argument at TriggerCon.
John:What is a micro compact?
John:Because everyone's now using that term in like the, the new Tor single stack 22 that is considered.
John:They're calling that a micro compact.
John:What is a micro compact?
John:We, we don't, we make up these terms, but nobody can define what a micro compact is.
John:Which is funny.
Jon Patton:I think it's just a term that stuck, you know, it used to be subcompact, that's what we called it.
Jon Patton:Because compact wasn't good enough.
Jon Patton:So we had subcompact and now we have micro compact.
Jon Patton:And I think micro compact has come to be a small double stack carry gun.
Jon Patton:Like that's the concept is it's, you know, 10 rounds of nine with a flush fit mag.
Jon Patton:That's kind of the standard that people are using right now.
Jon Patton:And that's generally speaking a micro compact with like a say 3 inch barrel, something like that.
Jon Patton:That's typically, that's what people are calling a micro compact.
Jon Patton:I don't know what the hell Taurus is thinking with a single stat.
Jon Patton:Like that's not like, I don't know what that is.
Jon Patton:It's probably junk.
Jon Patton:I don't know.
Jon Patton:I have not shot it, don't have any interest in shooting it.
Jon Patton:But I think it's just this word that people have stuck to.
Jon Patton:It's a marketing thing because these guns have gotten more slim.
Jon Patton:Right.
Jon Patton:So it's, it's not quite as wide as a subcompact.
Jon Patton:But rather than calling it slim because that word didn't do well with consumers, didn't matter.
Jon Patton:We've now just slapped it on.
Jon Patton:And now what's really interesting is we were going smaller, we were in this race to go small.
Jon Patton:And then now we've got literal full size 17 round very slim guns built off of these micro compact guns.
Jon Patton:And there's, it's not just Sig, it's a bunch of other companies doing this concept.
Jon Patton:And it's one of the weirdest things I've seen.
Jon Patton:You know, I remember when we had slim, like large guns that were slim.
Jon Patton:You could sell those and just call them slim.
John:Talk about.
John:We saw this trend of everybody going to polymer and now people want steel again.
John:And then it was now we want polymer again.
John:It's just weird.
John:The trends that the firearms industry goes through.
John:Either you're too late to the trend or you're just now becoming another me too product.
Jon Patton:I think the problem is people are chasing the trend.
Jon Patton:They're not, they're not setting the trend.
Jon Patton:Sig did it.
Jon Patton:You know, the 320 did a great job of introducing the world to chassis based fire control groups.
Jon Patton:That's great.
Jon Patton:And then they continued it with the 365.
Jon Patton:That's great.
Jon Patton:And I would argue that Smith and Wesson did a very good thing with the Shield in terms of EDC guns.
Jon Patton:Small, reliable.
Jon Patton:It was single stack at first, but now it's not.
Jon Patton:You know, they've they've, they've pushed and they've set a trend and now everybody's like just doubling on.
Jon Patton: looking at a MeToo product, a: Jon Patton:But I'm looking at one of those and it's just not that good.
Kaylee:And I want to ask this question because this is something that has I guess always bothered me.
Kaylee:Granted I'm coming from the minority or previous minority in the consumer being female, but my grandmother in law has arthritis and the only guns that are in existence, at least that I know of that I could even take her to go shoot that would be possible for her to shoot.
Kaylee:Is the shield easy and the tip up from eaa.
Kaylee:Do you think that they are instead of meeting real needs of customers, just choosing to ignore different groups?
Kaylee:Because like I have a massive hatred for the whole shrink it and pink it movement.
Kaylee:Um, I, I've gone on many rants.
Kaylee:I won't bore everyone with another one.
Kaylee:But it, it was very frustrating to me as we saw some crime go up in the area that she lives in.
Kaylee:Um, only being able to give her two real options.
Kaylee:And I think a lot of people find themselves in situations where a family member has maybe some limited mobility and there, there is no innovation in that sector in that space.
Kaylee:And I'm just curious if you have a take on why.
Jon Patton:I think, I think people are ignoring it honestly.
Jon Patton:Largely the other gun you could have her look at is the equalizer.
Jon Patton:That's a double stack version of the ez.
Jon Patton:That's basically the same thing and it is pretty good.
Jon Patton:And that is the same gun that I crapped on and then walked back.
Jon Patton:I just, I think a lot of people just don't cater to that audience and I don't know why.
Jon Patton:I don't have a good reason why, but I think they just ignored it.
Jon Patton:It's largely a money thing.
Jon Patton:Oftentimes like the market's not big enough to make that kind of gun.
Jon Patton:But I'll be honest, I like easy to control guns and easy to manipulate guns.
Jon Patton:I like that.
Jon Patton:The problem is a lot of times we get them in 22 or 380 or something like no can we make, you know, if we can make a big cool, light recoiling gun in some silly like a 10 mil or a 45, I'm sure we can do it in a smaller cartridge or a smaller frame gun, an easier to manipulate gun.
Jon Patton:But we just, we don't put the money into that.
Jon Patton:It goes into things like guns that fold up for no effing reason.
Jon Patton:Like, we have all these folding guns and nobody's folding them ever.
Jon Patton:Like, look, it folds and then you have to unfold it to shoot it.
Jon Patton:What.
Jon Patton:What's that for?
Jon Patton:I don't know.
Jon Patton:Do you know what that's for?
Jon Patton:Why?
Jon Patton:Oh, we'll put it in the pack when we go out in the field.
Jon Patton:We don't go to.
Jon Patton:Oh, sure.
John:No, I think the big reason why we don't see that and the only reason why I'm bringing this up because there's like three of them in the background of in John Studio is revolvers.
John:People go, oh, they have arthritis.
John:They can't wreck a slide.
John:Give them a revolver.
John:It used to be like females.
John:It was always give them a J frame.
John:Always give them a J frame.
Jon Patton:Oh, my gosh.
John:Yeah, that kicks.
Jon Patton:Give him a gun with a 12 pound trigger.
Jon Patton:What?
Kaylee:You're not wrong.
Jon Patton:Yeah, yeah.
Jon Patton:I think that's an underserved market.
Jon Patton:I think that's an underserved market for sure.
Kaylee:Is it?
Kaylee:And it is an underserved market.
Kaylee:But it's very frustrating because it's the same people who is like, well, you know, the market's not big enough for us to innovate in that area.
Kaylee:And is it like, well, if you build it, they will come.
Kaylee:They will come.
Kaylee:Like, you have to.
Kaylee:At some point.
Kaylee:You can't be like, well, you know, you need to come to us and then prove that you're a big enough market and then we'll cater to you.
Kaylee:It's like, well, if you have limited mobility, you have to have the option for us to even purchase your product.
John:Yeah.
John:If you.
Kaylee:And then, then they.
Kaylee:You can bring people to it.
Kaylee:You can't put the cart before the horse.
John:So what you're.
Kaylee:And it just.
Kaylee:I just.
Kaylee:That was the.
John:What you're saying is we need to build a gun range in a cornfield and hope the ghost of John Moses Browning walks out and gives us innovation.
Jon Patton:I think that's at Pew's house.
John:You're absolutely right.
John:Yeah, it is.
Jon Patton:I've been there.
John:Browning comes out and he's just like, you've built.
John:Yes.
Jon Patton:He just pats Nick on the back.
John:There's a video somewhere here.
Jon Patton:Good job.
Jon Patton:But him and his sweet mustard.
John:You're absolutely right.
John:And we see it all the time.
John:It's underserved market.
John:Or you, you get, you go up to.
John:And I've been in the shoes of the people who have this happen to.
John:But people will come up to you and be like, why don't you do this?
John:And I go, cool, get you and 10,000 of your friends to put together and we'll do this.
John:I mean, most of the time it's like, can you build an AR and 270o Roberts?
John:And I'm like, no, you and three of your friends are the ones who want to buy.
John:But that is an under.
Jon Patton:Why don't they have ammo for this?
John:But it's this.
Jon Patton:That's the follow on question 257 Roberts.
Jon Patton:What do you mean you don't have it?
John:Gun chop.
John:Um.
Jon Patton:Get them.
John:Where's the drama llama when we need them?
John:But yeah, it's.
John:It's weird.
John:You're absolutely right.
John:Underserved market.
John:But all the time people are like, you should do this or you should do that.
John:And I've come back from shows and my favorite one that I wanted to do, Kurt.
John:Kurt was on board.
John:Kurt was on board with this.
John:But I couldn't get the rest of the engineers on board.
John:Came back from a show the one time and I'm like, we're doing aftermarket high point barrels.
John:And they're like, you're an idiot.
John:Like, no, they'll cost more than the gun.
John:And it's fantastic.
John:But it's the same thing.
John:All these companies that go to the show, people walk up to them and go, you should do this or you should do that.
Kaylee:Yeah, but I think that there's a.
Kaylee:There's a difference here.
Kaylee:Okay.
Kaylee:And I am going to make this distinction.
Jon Patton:Yes.
Kaylee:And.
Kaylee:And then I'll leave the topic alone.
Kaylee:But there is a difference between listening to a section of the market that is being A, ignored or B, just avoided and going after these super niche trends.
Kaylee:And the reason that I say this is this.
Kaylee:I am small.
Kaylee:Very.
Jon Patton:Are you?
Kaylee:I don't even wear adult gloves.
Jon Patton:I didn't notice.
Kaylee:I am a.
Kaylee:I am a small person.
Kaylee:And it is very rare that I find in an industry.
Kaylee:I love things that are comfortable for me that I'm like, I'll spend money on that.
Kaylee:Take my money.
Kaylee:In fact, take all of it.
Kaylee:You can have it.
Kaylee:I want xyz.
Kaylee:But I am not the only person that fits that category.
Kaylee:I know, because I know the people I take to the range for the first time.
Kaylee:And most of them are smaller people like me because they see and they're like, oh, okay, so you, you shoot well.
Kaylee:You found some way to make it comfortable.
Kaylee:You know, this is what I was told to buy.
Kaylee:And you're like, why?
Kaylee:Who hurt you like.
Kaylee:Like, why would they.
Kaylee:Why would they tell you to get that?
Kaylee:That's gonna be awful.
Kaylee:And it's because they.
Kaylee:They look at the size of the gun and they're like, oh, small person, small hands.
Kaylee:This is.
Kaylee:This is what you want versus something that you can control.
Kaylee:Yeah.
Kaylee:It's amazing how my favorite.
John:My favorite was when I was working at the gun store was my neighbor, who's a cop, told me to get a Glock 23 or a Glock 27 or a.40 cow or a J frame revolver.
Jon Patton:That's worse.
John:You talk to them and they're like, no, you don't want any of those.
John:Nobody wants those.
Jon Patton:I was told to get a Glock 27.
Jon Patton:40 millimeter.
John:40 millimeter.
Jon Patton:The 40 mil.
Jon Patton:It's that big?
John:That's the one.
Jon Patton:But I just.40 millimeter.
Jon Patton:That's the one.
John:Yeah.
Jon Patton:All right, I got.
Jon Patton:I got a story for you about a gun store real quick.
Jon Patton: I started in a gun store in: Jon Patton:First gun store I ever worked in.
Jon Patton:One of the first times I was alone after, like, training in the shop, I was asked by an Amish man for sparklers.
Jon Patton:What do you think that was?
John:Dragon's breath.
Jon Patton:What product was he looking for?
Jon Patton:I'll give you three seconds.
Jon Patton:One, two, nothing.
Jon Patton:Primers.
Jon Patton:He was looking for shotgun primers.
Jon Patton:209 shotgun primers.
Jon Patton:He goes, what for sparklers you got.
Jon Patton:And I went, do what?
Jon Patton:It's November.
Jon Patton:What are you looking for?
Jon Patton:It was like, I don't know.
Jon Patton:It was not fireworks time.
Jon Patton:And he asked for sparklers.
Jon Patton:He wanted 209 shotgun primers.
Jon Patton:That's all I had.
Jon Patton:I just had to tell you that.
John:John, we appreciate you coming on the show today.
John:It is great, as always, to see your bearded face and smiling bearded face at that.
John:Let the people know where they can find you.
John:What's coming up, all that fun stuff.
Jon Patton:The gun collective just punched that in somewhere.
Jon Patton:And you'll probably find me shouting about something.
Jon Patton:That's it.
Jon Patton:Thank you for having me, by the way.
Jon Patton:I think this was a lot of fun.
John:I appreciate you being on PC Fashion.
John:We're just going to end on.
