Episode 28
Gun Content Creator Exposes ATF Overreach (ft. Desk Pop)
Joe from Desk Pop joins hosts Kaylee and John on Gun Owners of America's State of the Second to talk about how he built a firearms YouTube channel, why he sees gun content shifting from grim duty to genuine fun, and the phone call from the ATF that nearly ended both his channel and his freedom. Joe describes growing up on creators like FPS Russia, working as a gunsmith building custom rifles, and noticing a hole in the space once everything online turned into serious military-vet content. He wanted firearms to feel approachable again, and he wasn't the only one. He frames the cultural change as a younger generation rejecting the idea that you need a service record or a bolt-action rifle to belong, and instead building a welcoming community around training, competition, and the right to own what you want.
The heart of the episode is the ATF story. Joe sold two handguns in two months, both at a loss, to help fund his videos. An ATF agent he believes was named Michael called the gun shop where Joe worked, took his personal information, and told Joe he was operating as an FFL without a license by way of making firearms content online. When Joe explained he lost money on the sales, the agent said he didn't believe him, then called back an hour later threatening to send a car to pick him up unless Joe filed for an FFL. Joe and his team got their FFL SOT, an eight-month ordeal that required a member who owned a home, just to keep receiving guns for reviews. The hosts call it an attack on two constitutional rights at once, the Second Amendment and the First.
Joe also lays out life in a restrictive state. Washington's rules push him to public land to shoot, Rainier Arms has moved most of its operations to Kansas, Aero Precision nearly left before the governor offered tax exemptions to keep it, and some manufacturers refuse to ship even to a licensed dealer. He points to groups like Discovery Daddies and ASI matches as on-ramps for new shooters, urges companies to fund local range events, and argues the real long game is teaching the next generation before they reach voting age. His closing message: if you live in a free state, don't take it for granted, and vote.
Questions this episode answers
How did Joe get started making firearms content, and what gap was he trying to fill?
Joe came up watching creators like FPS Russia and worked as a gunsmith building custom rifles. He started Desk Pop because online gun content had turned almost entirely into serious military-vet material, and he wanted firearms to feel approachable and fun again.
Why has gun culture shifted from a serious, duty-first tone to a more fun and welcoming one?
Joe credits a younger generation that rejects the idea you need a service record or a bolt-action rifle to belong. They are building a community around training, competition, and the right to own what you want, which makes guns feel approachable again.
What exactly happened when the ATF called Joe about his YouTube channel?
An ATF agent Joe believes was named Michael called his gun shop, took his personal information, and claimed he was operating as an FFL without a license by making firearms content. When Joe said he lost money on his two gun sales, the agent didn't believe him and later threatened to send a car unless Joe filed for an FFL.
Why did Joe and his team go through the eight-month process of getting an FFL SOT?
After the ATF pressured Joe to license, he and his team pursued an FFL SOT so they could keep legally receiving firearms for reviews. The eight-month process required a team member who owned a home to qualify.
Why do some firearms companies refuse to ship to Washington even when the buyer holds a valid FFL?
Joe describes Washington as a restrictive state where some manufacturers won't ship even to a licensed dealer. The climate has pushed Rainier Arms to move most operations to Kansas and nearly drove Aero Precision out before the governor offered tax exemptions to keep it.
What can people in restrictive or banned states do to stay in the fight?
Joe urges companies to fund local range events and stresses teaching the next generation before they reach voting age. His closing message is that if you live in a free state, don't take it for granted, and vote.
How can someone find range days and competition events to get plugged into the firearms community?
Joe points to groups like Discovery Daddies and ASI matches as on-ramps for new shooters. He also calls on companies to fund local range events so more people have a place to start.
Chapters
- 00:00 — Welcome and rapid fire questions
- 03:03 — Who is Joe and the origin of Desk Pop
- 04:51 — Why gun content stopped being fun, then got fun again
- 06:19 — The cultural shift in gun shops and the younger generation
- 09:01 — Crossing over to the political side
- 12:25 — Constitutional carry and a more welcoming community
- 14:31 — Staying in the fight from a restrictive state
- 17:17 — Washington restrictions and companies that won't ship
- 19:51 — Finding range days, Discovery Daddies and ASI matches
- 22:57 — Aero Precision, Rainier Arms and companies leaving the state
- 26:26 — From the Soapbox: the ATF came after the YouTube channel
- 29:25 — On a list, the registry, and First Amendment concerns
- 34:45 — Zero tolerance policy and holding the ATF accountable
- 37:55 — Why small creators are most at risk
- 39:08 — Closing words, socials, and a call to vote
About the guest
Joe is one of three faces of the firearms YouTube channel Desk Pop. He has been into firearms his whole life and came up through media, marketing, video, and photo work, citing FPS Russia as an early influence. He worked as a gunsmith at a gun shop building custom rifles. He started a media company at age 20 that did just over half a million dollars in revenue its first year before his business partner pushed him out. He lives in Washington and was filming in Texas at the time of recording. He and his team hold an FFL SOT, obtained last year. The channel had 80,000 subscribers at the time of the ATF call. [VERIFY current channel size]
Key quotes
"I mean, guns are fun at the end of the day, like, I don't care how serious you are about your content, you really enjoy firearms." — Joe
"he called me and he said that I was operating an FFL without a license because I was selling firearms for revenue. And I said, no, I'm not selling firearms for revenue. I actually lost money on both of those sales." — Joe
"If you make gun content online and you are seen with a bunch of firearms, you're on a list." — Joe
"You fought an eight month battle to get your FFL so that you can continue to fuel the community." — Kaylee
"don't take your freedom for granted. For sure, if you live in a free state, lock it down while you can." — Joe
Transcript
Welcome to Gun Owners of America State of the second podcast.
Speaker A:I'm Kayleigh.
Speaker B:And I'm John.
Speaker B:And today we're joined by Joe from deskpop.
Speaker B:Joe, how are you?
Speaker C:I am well, guys, thanks for having me.
Speaker B:Well, we appreciate you being on.
Speaker B:We're going to start off with our first segment which is rapid fire questions.
Speaker B:We're going to ask you five questions.
Speaker B:Go ahead and answer them for us.
Speaker B:The first thing I'm going to ask you is what is your go to home defense setup?
Speaker C:My go to home defense setup right now is my 86 blackout with a Q short chop suppressor on it.
Speaker C:So.
Speaker B:That is amazing.
Speaker C:It sits next to my bed.
Speaker C:So, you know, it's the easy access.
Speaker A:That's awesome.
Speaker A:If you could change one firearm related movie to make it more realistic, what are you picking?
Speaker C:I'm picking John Wick because it's so close.
Speaker C:You know, it's just like the least amount of work to make it the most realistic.
Speaker B:That's the first one we've gotten.
Speaker B:Most of the people say Rambo, but this is the first.
Speaker C:Rambo.
Speaker B:Yeah, Rambo, yeah.
Speaker B:A lot of them say Rambo.
Speaker B:First blood.
Speaker C:I like, I think John Wick because they, in the, in all the BTS stuff they go, we really tried to make this realistic and then they just don't.
Speaker C:So that's, that's my, my justification there because they, they actually wanted it to be realistic.
Speaker B:What was your last impulse buy?
Speaker C:Oh, man, a lot of them.
Speaker C:My most recent one, I was in Idaho last weekend and I saw a Kel Tec P17 and a company named Ferrotech just released a like PDW conversion kit for those and they were pretty cheap guns.
Speaker C:So I bought a Kel Tec P17.
Speaker A:And what social media platform do you feel like is the most influential when it comes to bringing people into the Second Amendment?
Speaker C:That's tough.
Speaker C:It's, it's really between YouTube and TikTok actually.
Speaker B:If you were to look into your crystal ball, do you think we'll get SBRS off the nfa?
Speaker C:That's tough.
Speaker C:I don't want to be a naysayer here because I really want them to be off the nfa.
Speaker C:I, I think we will in some states.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:I think that's the easy way to say it.
Speaker C:I don't think federally will get restricted, but I think if federal restrictions get lifted, states like mine specifically will put SBR laws into effect.
Speaker B:And what state?
Speaker B:Where are you at?
Speaker C:Well, now I'm in Texas right now, but I live in Washington, so I Live in like a pretty restrictive state.
Speaker A:Yeah, you definitely.
Speaker A:Everyone kind of on the left coast is.
Speaker A:You guys have an uphill battle for sure.
Speaker A:Yeah, that's a tough one.
Speaker C:Yeah, Everything is banned in our state right now, so it's pretty tough.
Speaker B:Well, that wraps up our rapid fire questions.
Speaker B:Let's go ahead and dive into this.
Speaker B:Tell us a little about who you are, how you got started, about your YouTube channel, all that stuff.
Speaker C:Okay.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:I'm Joe and I am what some people would consider the face of desktop.
Speaker C:I'm one of three faces of desktop.
Speaker C:And I got started because I've been into firearms my whole life.
Speaker C:And I've actually been into media marketing and video and photo and all that.
Speaker C:And FPS Russia is kind of who I grew up on.
Speaker C:And he dropped off.
Speaker C:And at some point about three years ago, I went, Man, I really wish when YouTube content was fun because we went through this phase where everything was super, super ser.
Speaker C:You had to be like a ba.
Speaker C:Military dude, bro vet to even be considered someone who knows something about guns.
Speaker C:And I was actually a gunsmith working at a gun shop, and we were building custom rifles for people.
Speaker C:And I was spending all my extra money on firearms.
Speaker C:And since I'm working on the side doing video production and media and all that, I went, I could do firearms content, and I thought it was cheap when I first got into it because I came from like a automotive and car background.
Speaker C:And then I went into politics, which costs a lot more money.
Speaker C:And then I discovered that firearms content is in fact, not any cheaper.
Speaker C:But I sure am here.
Speaker C:And people like us, I guess, so we have a pretty decent following now.
Speaker C:And I am having a blast.
Speaker C:I mean, it gives me an excuse to go places.
Speaker C:Like, I'm in Texas right now.
Speaker C:We were filming Night Vision last night in Thermal that I've been doing a video series on.
Speaker C:And then we're filming with a bunch of definitely not machine guns today.
Speaker C:So it'll be a really.
Speaker C:It's been really cool.
Speaker C:That's.
Speaker C:Yeah, I mean, I got started because I saw like a hole that I wanted to fill.
Speaker C:And it seems like a bunch of people saw the same hole at the same time that I saw it and filled it too, because I'm definitely not.
Speaker C:I'm not the only creator like this anymore.
Speaker C:So it's really cool.
Speaker B:And I love that you guys took that kind of approach because we did see for the longest time it was kind of that serious vibe on YouTube.
Speaker B:And now when YouTube started, it was like a really good, fun vibe.
Speaker B:Now we're getting that fun vibe back.
Speaker B:There's a lot of new channels out there, like yourself, who are promoting the Second Amendment in a more enjoyable light.
Speaker C:Yeah, fun, because that was a big thing.
Speaker C:When you're working at, you know, I'm working at a firearm shop, and I have people come in every day who.
Speaker C:They aren't interested in firearms or they've been told they need to get a gun.
Speaker C:And one of the most common interactions we had with people was when they leave, they're like, you were not at all like we expected.
Speaker C:You guys are super nice, you're super knowledgeable.
Speaker C:You were actually fun to be around.
Speaker C:And I guess they were expecting, you know, what they've seen online up until that point, which was dudes who were, like, super serious all the time freaking out about gun handling.
Speaker C:And it's like, I don't know.
Speaker C:I mean, if someone's never handled a gun before, we're not going to freak out at them when they don't know the gun rules.
Speaker C:So we do it really simply here.
Speaker C:And yeah, I mean, guns are fun at the end of the day, like, I don't care how serious you are about your content, you really enjoy firearms.
Speaker C:It's not just that you see it as a duty.
Speaker C:It's because you.
Speaker C:You see it as something that you enjoy, and it's fun and that's okay.
Speaker B: lly, like, you got to carry a: Speaker B:Why do you think that culture shift has kind of changed over the last decade, really?
Speaker C:I don't want to, like, I want to say it's kind of this younger generation that pushed it to this shift because we all grew up.
Speaker C:For instance, in my state, I still can't go to any, like, set public range, if that makes sense.
Speaker C:I still have to go to public land if I want to shoot.
Speaker C:Because of what we call FUD rules.
Speaker C:You can't rapid fire.
Speaker C:You can't load more than one round in the magazine.
Speaker C:We had a generation of people that treated other firearm owners as if they were babies and hid behind their military service, whether it was just three years in or four years in on their first contract as a reason, that made them a firearms expert.
Speaker C:And it was just an industry full of, whether people like it or not.
Speaker C:It was an industry kind of full of hate and people that didn't want people to learn about firearms because they were scared that someone would hurt themselves.
Speaker C:Almost like helicopter parents of the firearms generation.
Speaker C:And that doesn't result in new people getting interested in the second amendment.
Speaker C:That doesn't result in firearm sales in your gun shop.
Speaker C:And it more importantly does not result in the continuance of a industry.
Speaker C:So I think we saw a shift because it was necessary partially, and then also because people my age who grew up being told we could only put one round in the chamber, being told that competition shooting was stupid, being told that guns are just for hunting, grew up and said no guns were actually given to us to take over if our government was, say, corrupt.
Speaker C:And not to say that they're not corrupt now.
Speaker C:But obviously our right to bear arms shouldn't be limited for hunting.
Speaker C:And the thought behind a firearm shouldn't be, am I going to hunt with this?
Speaker C:It's going to be, should I defend my house with it?
Speaker C:And then even more so, do I want it?
Speaker C:Because it is my second amendment right to own a firearm if I desire it.
Speaker C:So I think those people have kind of grown up all of us.
Speaker C:And at least from around my perspective, most new shops will have younger faces like me in them.
Speaker C:And we're kind of all in the league of you should be allowed to own a tank if you want it.
Speaker C:And that's kind of the attitude we got because growing up, we got told that we should only want a bolt action rifle.
Speaker B:Now, kind of like myself, who also worked behind the gun counter and then in the gun industry, and now I'm on the policy and political side.
Speaker B:What made you kind of do the same thing?
Speaker B:Because you mentioned that you hopped over to the political side for a little while.
Speaker B:You know, what was your thought process and what made you want to take that step over to that side of the fight.
Speaker C:Yeah, it's actually a lot more simple than you might think.
Speaker C:I had a media company that I built when I was 20 years old with what was my best friend at the time.
Speaker C:Our first year Covid hit, and instead of doing really bad, we actually did really well.
Speaker C:We did just over half a million dollars our first year in revenue, which is considered good for a startup company especially.
Speaker C:We had no capital.
Speaker C:So it was him and I who started the company.
Speaker C:And yeah, he, he saw that money and actually took me off the company.
Speaker C:So I was jobless.
Speaker C:I had just moved out.
Speaker C:I had just spent all my money and the only place that would hire me was a firearm shop because I knew a little bit about Glocks.
Speaker C:And I knew a little bit about Ars.
Speaker C:And then I basically just stumbled upon a gentleman who walked into the gun shop and needed someone to do videography.
Speaker C:And I said, hey, I'm a videographer and I'm coincidentally just completely out of work.
Speaker C:And he was like, oh, send me your reel.
Speaker C:And I sent him it.
Speaker C:And it was good because, you know, I had a media company.
Speaker C:I was just pretty down on my luck.
Speaker C:And just like that, he introduced me to some, some high ranking political figure.
Speaker C:And the guy just liked my work, he liked my work ethic, and that was kind of how it shifted.
Speaker C:And then somewhere in between that, I got radicalized because I realized how important politics were and that's why I started making gun videos instead of just keeping my work and my politics completely separate.
Speaker C:And now here we are, and I'm completely mixed on the political end of it as well with firearms.
Speaker C:So, yeah, less, less cool than you might think.
Speaker C:I mean, it just ended up being that I was very poor and on the verge of being homeless and I found the work in the right place.
Speaker A:I mean, that's pretty serendipitous, but like, that's so many stories that we hear where people want to make a change or they need to make a change.
Speaker A:And this community has always been very welcoming to new ideas and ways to reach new people.
Speaker A:And I think that's why we have seen these shifts to where people want to experience the fun side, the competition side of the firearms community.
Speaker A:And it's because it's being displayed more for people to see.
Speaker A:And you realize that you don't have to have gone to, you know, sniper school in order to go to a long range competition.
Speaker A:And you don't have to have a military background in order to go out and compete in the tactical games or whatever it may be.
Speaker A:And that community has really enticed a new generation of people who are willing to take the baton when it's passed to them and go further and farther.
Speaker A:And I think that's why we're also seeing on the political side, you know, constitutional carry.
Speaker A:Pardon my inability to speak English, but, you know, it's why we're seeing constitutional carry go from originally it was called Vermont carry and it was in the Vermont Constitution.
Speaker A:And then when we got it in Alaska, it was Vermont style carry.
Speaker A:And then marketers got involved, thankfully.
Speaker A:And now we call it constitutional carry or permitless carry.
Speaker A:And it's a little bit easier for people to understand.
Speaker A:And it's now over 50% of the country have that.
Speaker A:We're talking about potentially national reciprocity at the federal level and winning on the Hearing Protection Act.
Speaker A:And all of those sorts of moments happen because we've made the firearms community more welcoming, more abundant, and easier for people to go from maybe anti gun to gun curious to gun owner and then to advocate.
Speaker C:Definitely no.
Speaker C:It feels like the POV or the perspective we're feeding people has shifted from, like, when I grew up, it was a, oh, it's your duty to own a gun to protect your family, and you have to own a gun to protect your family.
Speaker C:And that's the reason that the Second Amendment's important.
Speaker C:And it's almost shifted from a.
Speaker C:Well, yes, but also you should want to have guns because they are fun and they're interesting and they're important to train with, and there's a community around it.
Speaker C:So we're creating kind of more of a community around it.
Speaker C:Kind of how free speech has protesters protesting.
Speaker C:We have now firearms events, and they're much more welcoming to people.
Speaker C:So that's.
Speaker C:Yeah, that's a huge role.
Speaker C:I think it's shifted almost from like, it's your duty to own a gun to.
Speaker C:Well, yes, but you should also want it like, it's fun.
Speaker C:You should enjoy it.
Speaker C:So I think that's cool to see.
Speaker B:You live in Washington, which is kind of behind enemy lines, as you know.
Speaker B:What can you tell the people out there who live in states that are very restrictive on how to get into the fight, to stay in the fight, to not be discouraged?
Speaker C:Yeah, I mean, it's pretty grim in Washington.
Speaker C:I hate telling people, oh, don't lose hope in your state or whatever, but sometimes it is a strategic retreat.
Speaker C:So if you can't make headway, be an advocate while you're there.
Speaker C:So me in Washington, everyone who I come across that's interested in firearms will take the time to teach them.
Speaker C:The state's about to pass some rules to make that increasingly impossible.
Speaker C:Unfortunately, in Washington, or in a really restrictive state, I have really a lot of pity for people, and I hope that they understand that I'm feeling the same way they are when it comes down to it.
Speaker C: firearms rounds purchases to: Speaker C:So if that happens on a personal level, tell everyone to get out there and just talk about why they would need more than a thousand rounds a month.
Speaker C:For instance, if you compete, you need more than a thousand rounds a month.
Speaker C:If you're competing once a week, or even if you're Competing uspsa, But you're training every week.
Speaker C:You'll burn more than a thousand rounds a month.
Speaker C:So that's a really low limit.
Speaker C:And again, that's one caliber that you have a thousand rounds a month of.
Speaker C:So it's not like you can buy 500, 5, 5, 6, and then another thousand nine mil.
Speaker C:That would be just a thousand rounds total a month.
Speaker C:So things like that, educating the people around you.
Speaker C:I think what's gonna happen in these states that are banned states, like my state, Washington, to say that it's a lost cause.
Speaker C:It's a lost cause at the moment is the easy way to say it.
Speaker C:But we have a generation around us that we can raise, and they're almost voting age and teach them the importance of voting and then also gun ownership.
Speaker C:Because I don't think we're gonna shift the boomers that are in the office making all the rules who are living in Bainbridge and se that control the entire state of Washington.
Speaker C:But we absolutely can shift the opinion of the youth who's about to age up to voting age and teach them that they, not only is it their right to own firearms, but they should want them.
Speaker C:And there's a whole community that they can access if they get their rights back to own them.
Speaker C:I think, yeah, in ban states, that's kind of the most important thing you can do.
Speaker C:Unfortunately for us, we might have to leave Washington.
Speaker C:And we're looking at it more and more, especially with the restrictions coming in.
Speaker C:We just got our FFL SOT last year and other firearms industries or owners.
Speaker C:So, like companies and stuff won't ship to us.
Speaker C:I'm a licensed firearms dealer.
Speaker C:I shouldn't have any issues.
Speaker C:I don't have to follow state restrictions and I still can't get stuff shipped to us.
Speaker C:So I feel their pain on a huge level there because I'm also going through the process to make sure I have all my permitting and I can own it.
Speaker C:And there's still companies that refuse to ship to our state and won't ship to us even with the right permits.
Speaker C:So I think the real way to make the difference is to teach that younger generation and show them the importance of firearm ownership.
Speaker C:Because as soon as they can vote, that's how we're going to take it over.
Speaker C:Yeah, I think that's the best way to get it back.
Speaker C:So if you're in a.
Speaker C:If you're in a banned state, hold strong.
Speaker C:But even if you do leave, don't give up on that state.
Speaker C:Take the time to teach the youth in that state.
Speaker C:So if there's.
Speaker C:Washington does range days all the time.
Speaker C:They do events all the time.
Speaker C:So even if we have to leave and go to a different state, we'll still be flying back there to advocate when we can and go to range events when we can to show people that it matters, that it's important and that they matter.
Speaker C:In the industry.
Speaker B:You met, you mentioned, companies won't ship to you even with your, with your ffl.
Speaker B:Is there, is it just because they're concerned over the legal actions that may be taken against them or is it just because they just decide to just throw the towel in?
Speaker C:Yeah, so it's, it's.
Speaker C:I would love to say that it's because they're worried about legal ramifications, but there has not been a single case in Washington state of the attorney general going after any company on the history of.
Speaker C: e this law went into place in: Speaker C:Assault rifle ban.
Speaker C:So, no, it's companies just refusing to participate in working through when people do have freedoms.
Speaker C:And so since Washington is a ban state, they just won't ship to Washington at all.
Speaker C:I wish that I could say that companies had the best interest of customers and like, wanted to take the time to see, like, okay, what is legal to ship to Washington.
Speaker C:But there are good companies out there that are working around it.
Speaker C:Primary Arms is a great one that works around it.
Speaker C:They send you a little affidavit.
Speaker C:Now, if you're in Washington.
Speaker C:A lot of people don't know this.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:If you order from Primary Arms and you're in Washington state, they'll email you an affidavit that says, I'm not making a new assault weapon.
Speaker C:And you check the little box and that's their, that's their legal protection.
Speaker C:It is.
Speaker C:That's how it works.
Speaker C:I'm not making a new assault weapon so I can buy these parts.
Speaker C:Boop.
Speaker C:And then they'll ship your order.
Speaker C:So there are companies that work around it.
Speaker A:So I want to ask about the range days in Washington because I know for a lot of people who live in states that are restrictive, finding those places that are willing to have range days, finding that group of community to get plugged into is almost impossible.
Speaker A:So while we have an expert in the room, so to speak, what are some of those annual events or how should people search to find those events in Washington so that they can go out and get plugged in into this community?
Speaker C:Yeah, no, that's a great question.
Speaker C:That was very kind to call me an expert.
Speaker C:I'm surprised you did that without laughing.
Speaker C:That was really great.
Speaker C:I think the best way to do it is Discovery Daddies is.
Speaker C:It's a really funny name.
Speaker C:I know, but it's Discovery Daddies is like the local Washington group for firearms and they have right now they have 40 or 50 people that come out to their shoot shoot range days, which is pretty good.
Speaker C:It seems to double every time they put one on.
Speaker C:So they're a great little organization and they just do range days which is just like you go out, you shoot, you have fun for a few hours.
Speaker C:Companies will sponsor it.
Speaker C:And so they're a really good kind of tiny group but they're growing.
Speaker C:They're friends with like Iron Monkey Rifle company and a lot of the local kind of Washington reindeer arms and the people who are still here.
Speaker C:So they put on events almost monthly.
Speaker C:They put on a shoot which is really cool.
Speaker C:And then my recommendation to everyone is go to an ASI match.
Speaker C:ASI is like USPSA for people who are not super competitive and it's just a good time.
Speaker C:And that is the point.
Speaker C:It's supposed to be fun and enjoyable.
Speaker C:So one the downside is you will get addicted to competition shooting because it's super fun to run matches but it's really a welcoming community.
Speaker C:And then yeah, going to practicecore.com and finding a local ASI match to drop in on, you could bring pretty much any gun you want to there and they'll let you shoot it and you'll get to run a match in a safe environment with what I consider to be like minded people.
Speaker C:And it's pretty, pretty diverse too.
Speaker C:So you will find someone, even if we aren't the same on the political spectrum right now, you'll find someone there who is on the same political spectrum as you.
Speaker C:So it's cool.
Speaker C:It's just a universal firearm ownership does not take, I don't think it takes a red or blue side.
Speaker C:I think firearm ownership is both.
Speaker C:Both sides should see it as the most important thing.
Speaker C:So yeah,.
Speaker B:One more thing on Washington before we go into the next segment, but what is your thoughts about Washington doing these attacks and companies like Aero Precision and Rainier Arms who have been in Washington for a long time have been a big staple and the possibility of them having to move out of the state.
Speaker B:We've seen Rainier Arms still keep a presence in Washington, but they've moved most of their stuff to Kansas City or I'm sorry, Wichita.
Speaker B:My bad.
Speaker C:Yeah, Kansas.
Speaker B:Yeah, Kansas but in a whole, what, what is your thought process of companies like that who have been a staple of helping the economy in Washington?
Speaker B:We know that Arrow has a huge facility and takes up almost two city blocks in where they're located.
Speaker B:You know, what's that possibility of them just leaving the whole state or how it affects the state altogether?
Speaker C:Yeah, I think it's huge.
Speaker C:From, from a tax standpoint, I didn't sign an NDA, so I can say this.
Speaker C:Aero Precision was going to leave.
Speaker C:When the state did this assault rifle ban and the governor himself made some tax exemptions so that they would stay, he came down to the Arrow facility in person to ask them to stay.
Speaker C:So from just a revenue standpoint for the state, if you're a state, it's in your best interest to have firearms manufacturers in your state because they make a lot of money and they pay a lot of taxes on that money.
Speaker C:It's one of the more taxed things you produce.
Speaker C:I don't blame any company for leaving.
Speaker C:Like I said, Aero Precision is actually one of the companies that won't ship to Washington in their own state.
Speaker C:They won't do it.
Speaker C:So they're named in litigation against the state.
Speaker C:So they claim they're being extra cautious during their litigation phase against the state of Washington.
Speaker C:But we do know that that is in fact just mumbo jumbo because they can, they can ship many parts to Washington state residents and they just don't.
Speaker C:So I, I don't blame states that want to leave at all or companies that want to leave.
Speaker C:I don't blame them.
Speaker C:And yeah, it's tough.
Speaker C:Like I said.
Speaker C:I mean, I've run my channel here now for, since the ban, about two years.
Speaker C:And we even went and got our FFL SOT so that we could continue to operate basically under threat of ATF throwing me in prison is what, what made us sign up for it.
Speaker C:As I said, I was operating in FFL without a license by just shooting guns on YouTube, which is really cool.
Speaker C:That's a whole nother story.
Speaker C:But we got ours, so we got ours.
Speaker C:And yeah, it's, it's tough.
Speaker C:I mean, I would, I would encourage them to pour into local events that people put on and host.
Speaker C:I think that that is one really affordable for companies to throw a few thousand dollars at range events to make them a great time for the people who show up.
Speaker C:And then two, I think it's the most crucial thing to show them that even though they're not in that state, they still support the cause and they still Support events.
Speaker C:So supporting shooting matches in Washington, supporting discovery.
Speaker C:Daddy's get sponsors for the range days, Supporting those and then encouraging those guys to go and have more because they do one a month and we all work regular jobs.
Speaker C:But if a big company went, hey, we'll send you a case of ammo or two for your range day to kind of lighten the load a little bit, I think that would open it up to more things.
Speaker C:So.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker C:Yeah, I mean, it's tough.
Speaker B:I know we have to get into our next segment.
Speaker B:I think this is going to be spicy for the next segment.
Speaker B:So I'm going to go to our from the Soapbox segment.
Speaker B:This is where we get super spicy and everything like that.
Speaker B:You just said something that I really want to dive into.
Speaker B:The ATF came after you for having a YouTube channel.
Speaker C:Yes.
Speaker C:So their exact verbiage.
Speaker C:So this is really interesting when they decided to do this because I was still technically employed at a gun shop and I this is a fun fact about me.
Speaker C:I'm not rich.
Speaker C:So to make YouTube videos, I would buy a gun, I would do a review on it, and then I would end up selling it to pay for the next videos or to pay for bullets to help fund the next videos.
Speaker C:Now, I would lose money on the sale because we all know how used firearms work.
Speaker C:When you buy something brand new and then you go to sell it, you lose money.
Speaker C:But I would recuperate some of the lost revenue so I could pour it into the next video content.
Speaker C:I sold a total of two handguns in the span of two months.
Speaker C:And I got called by, I believe his name was Michael from the atf.
Speaker C:And he first called the gun shop I was at, demanded my personal information.
Speaker C:And unfortunately, the gun shop I was at just handed him my personal information, which is really cool.
Speaker C:This is a whole separate conversation.
Speaker C:But he called me and he said that I was operating an FFL without a license because I was selling firearms for revenue.
Speaker C:And I said, no, I'm not selling firearms for revenue.
Speaker C:I actually lost money on both of those sales.
Speaker C:So I would be the worst firearms salesperson on the planet if I only lost money on sales.
Speaker C:I was like, I'm not making a profit.
Speaker C:I'm losing money.
Speaker C:And then I said, I bought these.
Speaker C:I used them for my personal use online, and then I've decided to sell them.
Speaker C:I said, when I purchased them, I did not intend to sell them.
Speaker C:Obviously, I purchased it with the intent to keep it.
Speaker C:But needing money is a very good motivator for someone.
Speaker C:And so I sold it and he said, oh, okay, I don't believe you.
Speaker C:Basically hung up on me, called me back an hour later, said that I need to file for my FFL or he would send a car to pick me up because I am operating an FFL without a license by way of making firearms content online.
Speaker C:Some people might remember like a little news tidbit that came out where the ATF had said that they would start prosecuting people on like making YouTube videos.
Speaker C:I can't remember the exact article, but I was definitely one of those people.
Speaker C:And so the next day we signed up for our ffl.
Speaker C:And which is really tough, by the way, when you don't own a home to be able to file where you're going to have your own ffl.
Speaker C:So luckily one of the guys on our, on our channel is a little more well off.
Speaker C:He was able to purchase a house.
Speaker C:So he, out of his condo went through the eight month ordeal of getting his condo to approve him having an FFL for us to not buy and sell firearms, but just receive firearms so we can make YouTube videos online and get rid of them because in many instances we don't want them or we don't have room for all the firearms that we have.
Speaker C:So I'd love to be able to collect everything, but I'm sure you've seen my videos, you know that most of the, most of the money goes into the dirt down the range.
Speaker B:So this just blows my mind because you're, you're the first one who actually has told me they've gotten a phone call.
Speaker B:I've Talked to other YouTubers who have gotten, who have since gotten their FFL to make life easier on them so they could get things in easier.
Speaker B:But they also have told me that they were told by their, the auditor, or not the auditor, the agent in charge of doing their FFL paperwork who came to inspect everything, that they were on a list of people who were going to get inspected anyways because of the vast number of guns they were getting.
Speaker C:Yep.
Speaker C:Which is, by the way, unconstitutional.
Speaker C:Thank you, firearms registry that supposedly does not exist for violating my rights and getting me on the radar enough that I got called and threatened.
Speaker C:But we don't, you know, there's no firearms registry, there's no list of purchases.
Speaker C:So that, that's all fake.
Speaker C:But yeah, no, they, they 100%.
Speaker C:If you make gun content online and you are seen with a bunch of firearms, you're on a list.
Speaker C:I think I got called because my state was really easy to prosecute and it's it's kind of not a gun friendly state.
Speaker C:So.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Kaylee, you wanna.
Speaker A:I just for me it's just so bonkers.
Speaker A:I.
Speaker A:That's, it's not even a great word to describe it.
Speaker A:But it's just like first of all, you're absolutely right, it's unconstitutional.
Speaker A:But it's also unconstitutional on like many different levels because like you could even make an argument, I think for like a First Amendment issue because if you're not able to make your content about what you want to make it on with the firearms, then they're also inhibiting your speech.
Speaker A:To be able to review firearms and to be able to have conversations in the public square.
Speaker A:There's just a lot to dive into all of the things that were wrong with that situation.
Speaker A:But I think it's very admirable that you all stayed firm.
Speaker A:You fought an eight month battle to get your FFL so that you can continue to fuel the community.
Speaker A:And I think that that goes back to what you were talking about as far as like your why for why you decided to start your channel, why you decided to get involved in politics and merge two worlds for you into one cohesive narrative that you're living your life by.
Speaker A:And I think that's very admirable and I think is so needed in this era that we're in with the political fights that are at hand.
Speaker C:Yeah, it's, it's definitely one of those, one of those things where you don't want to have to like, you really don't want to admit that it's a struggle, but it's, it's a struggle.
Speaker C:So I think I double down on it.
Speaker C:A lot of people are really quick to throw shade in this state and it feels like people are kind of bitter when creators leave or when companies leave.
Speaker C:But I am, I'm not one of those people.
Speaker C:I'm not bitter.
Speaker C:I understand.
Speaker C:I really understand.
Speaker C:And it's getting harder and harder.
Speaker C:I'm not able to get new firearms that are being released.
Speaker C:A lot of companies don't want to work with us because they don't want to deal with the hassle of Washington.
Speaker C:So a lot of people will notice my channel specifically.
Speaker C:We'll get some new stuff.
Speaker C:But most firearms companies do not have us on their air quotes influencer list that gets sent the guns.
Speaker C:The way I have to get it is I wait until it's available on the market and then I purchase it because they just don't see us as worth the headache is the easy way to say it.
Speaker C:But, but yeah, worth, worth the headache.
Speaker C:So I don't, I don't blame companies that leave.
Speaker C:But again, like I said, even if I, if I do leave this state, which we're looking at, that being a possibility with how restrictive it's going to get, I want to make sure that I encourage companies to pour back into the state and then I'm obviously going to make sure that we, as a channel, obviously I'm not super wealthy, but we'll pour into the state with whatever we can, whether it's flying out for events, hosting rangers in Washington, but going to competitions there to try to make sure that we are pouring into the community and changing that narrative for the next generation.
Speaker B:I'm still mind blown by this.
Speaker B:And Kaylee said it, right.
Speaker B:I mean, it's a definitely attack on two different constitutional rights.
Speaker B:You have your Second amendment right and your first Amendment right because if they were to shut you down or even try to prosecute you, you most likely would have had to shut down your channel.
Speaker C:I'd be done.
Speaker C:I don't have money.
Speaker C:I'd be, I'd be, not just shut down my channel.
Speaker C:I'd be in jail.
Speaker B:So it's just insane to think that they could do that.
Speaker B:And I mean, like I said, I've had other YouTubers who have said similar stories or have said things like that.
Speaker B:It just blows my mind that they, they would attack two different protected rights because they deem it as the act of doing business.
Speaker B:And again, this has all to do with the Biden administration's ATF changing the, the definition of the act of doing business.
Speaker B:And we've seen recently, if I'm not mistaken, the lift on the FFLs to encourage them to come back have been shut down.
Speaker A:Have they changed the, the zero tolerance policy?
Speaker A:Yeah, it's no longer in effect.
Speaker C:Yep, they've changed that.
Speaker C:But I mean, the other thing to note is changing the zero tolerance policy doesn't fix it at all.
Speaker C:I think that the ones who got shut down should be financially encouraged to start back up because of how much people, you know, you're, you're killing people's livelihoods.
Speaker C:You're not just killing their gun shop.
Speaker C:A lot of the guys who I know who shut down, they shut down.
Speaker C:And now they, they had to find a new job, they had to get a new career.
Speaker C:So if you tell them, okay, you can go start a gun shop back up again, they don't have $200,000 to put into starting a new gun shop and getting inventory, and they don't have that money anymore.
Speaker C:So it's.
Speaker C:It's rough.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:I mean, you're.
Speaker B:You're talking about if.
Speaker B:If they got shut down, they had to get rid of all their inventory, which they probably ended up taking a loss on.
Speaker B:I mean, I think that, personally, I think the Biden administration should be held responsible and should be financially responsible to help get these guys back up.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:I mean, the ATF should lose their budget, and the ATF budget should go towards helping the unlawfully shut down firearms gun shops reopen, at least back to their original level or to their restored level.
Speaker C:I think that that would be a proper use of funds since the money's getting burned anyway.
Speaker A:You know, so for me, it's still.
Speaker A:It's so difficult for so many people that are in a free state.
Speaker A:You were talking about how easy it is to prosecute in the state of Washington.
Speaker A:And I think for a lot of people that are in a freer state, even if this were to happen, they would feel like, well, you know, maybe my AG would be on my side or, you know, maybe I can fight it this way or that way.
Speaker A:But, you know, you even alluded to the fact that you feel like you were on the top of the list because of this state that you were in.
Speaker A:And I think it just shows how.
Speaker A:How thoughtful they are in their intent and in the way that they do things, because they want the precedent set so that they can go further and go into maybe the more purplish states and then into.
Speaker A:Into the, you know, states that would not be on their side for it.
Speaker A:But.
Speaker A:But they play the dominoes in a way to really stack the deck as much as possible.
Speaker A:Not to mix metaphors too much against the.
Speaker A:The gun owners and the FFLs and the YouTubers to try to stifle as much content as humanly possible.
Speaker A:And I think what really scared them, I, obviously, I'm not one of them, so I can't speak for them, but at least from the outside looking in, I wonder how much of this was driven by the massive amount of new gun owners that came into the movement through Covid.
Speaker C:Yeah, well, and that's, I think, a big portion of it.
Speaker C:And then the other thing is, you guys know this as well as anyone.
Speaker C:The easy wins are easy to take.
Speaker C:And so small influencers are, I believe, at more risk than the large ones, especially in your.
Speaker C:In your state.
Speaker C:Because if, say, I had gotten Prosecuted, we had 80,000 subscribers when, when I got that phone call, I could have posted it on my social media.
Speaker C:We probably would have got what 5,000 views on the video and that's it.
Speaker C:I'd be in jail.
Speaker C:There'd be no.
Speaker C:There'd be no court case, and my whole state would be against me.
Speaker C:So the smaller ones, unfortunately, are even at more of a risk.
Speaker C:So it was kind of they want to deincentivize people making firearms content, and then they want to stop where they can.
Speaker C:So, I mean, I got lucky in the sense that we were in a position where we just happened to be able to get an FFL sot.
Speaker C:But again, if it was just me, that would not have happened.
Speaker C:I would have had to stop making videos.
Speaker C:I don't have.
Speaker C:I don't own property.
Speaker C:I'm not in a position where I'm able to buy property.
Speaker C:If you guys have looked at property in Washington state, it's impossible.
Speaker C:But also, obviously, I was just fired from my job four years ago, so my income is not in a place where I'd be approved for a house loan, let alone able to afford one.
Speaker B:So before we go, first thing I have to we have our gift for our guests from AAC in Palmetto State Armory.
Speaker B:Alex will reach out to you about that and get you all hooked up with that.
Speaker B:So we thank Palmetto and AAC for supporting the gift for our guests.
Speaker B:Go ahead and shout out any socials anywhere where people can find you and any closing words you want to give to the folks.
Speaker C:That's super kind.
Speaker C:I didn't know we got a gift for being on the podcast.
Speaker C:That's super sweet.
Speaker C:Thanks, guys.
Speaker C:Yeah, some socials you can follow us on Instagram.
Speaker C:We are real.deskpup actually, please follow us on Instagram.
Speaker C:We need those.
Speaker C:And then we're obviously on YouTube.
Speaker C:We're just desktop on YouTube.
Speaker C:We're not real.
Speaker C:We're just regular old desk pop on YouTube.
Speaker C:Those are our only socials.
Speaker C:I don't do the Twitter, the tweeter, all those things.
Speaker C:X.
Speaker C:Sorry, how dare I say Twitter X And then I guess closing words.
Speaker C:If you're in a band state, I feel for you.
Speaker C:I feel your pain more and more every time I go to a free state for these events.
Speaker C:It's like I'm on vacation more.
Speaker C:So it's just a weights lifted off.
Speaker C:And it's really encouraging being especially in Texas.
Speaker C:There's just guns everywhere, gun owners everywhere.
Speaker C:The whole atmosphere is different and it's really cool.
Speaker C:So don't take your freedom for granted.
Speaker C:For sure, if you live in a free state, lock it down while you can.
Speaker C:And yeah, if you live in a banned state.
Speaker C:I think the biggest thing is teaching kids about the importance of firearms ownership.
Speaker C:And even the youth, the kids who are 17, 18, they're seeing, what do we want to call them, kind of outskirts of YouTube.
Speaker C:You're seeing improper gun ownership and violence from firearms and less of the responsible safe side and even the competition side.
Speaker C:So look for the responsible stuff and get interested in it and start now because you'll be in a position to vote for it.
Speaker C:Oh, also vote.
Speaker C:That's a big thing.
Speaker C:People don't do that.
Speaker C:So in our industry specifically, people do not vote.
Speaker C:Voting is important and talking to your rep is important.
Speaker C:You can make a big difference by annoying someone.
Speaker C:So feel free to annoy your reps.
Speaker A:Absolutely.
Speaker B:All right, guys, so make sure to Joe, again, thank you for being on.
Speaker B:Make sure to like, share and subscribe.
Speaker B:Hit the little bell for notification.
Speaker B:Leave a five star review on all podcasting.
Speaker B:Hopes we will catch you guys on the next one.
Speaker B:Have a great rest of your day.
